Forums - CapCom's AAA WHY? Show all 76 posts from this thread on one page Forums (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/index.php) - Strategy & Tactics (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=10) -- CapCom's AAA WHY? (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=24901) Posted by BlackShinobi on 06:13:2001 06:04 AM: CapCom's AAA WHY? These are IMO the useful AAAs of MVC2 CapCom/BlackHeart/Cyclops/Psylocke/Cammy/Shoto/Guile+charlie/Jin/Doom/Ruby heart/Colossus/IM + WM So why All of the emphasis on Captain Commando? I started thinking yesterday and I decided that it was time to retire CapCom from my team. 1. On that list of AAAs that I can up with the only one that I think would lose to CapCom 1 on 1 on regular basis is Ruby heart, and even that is close. 2. I use Sentinel a lot and I used to use Capcom against Doom and Blackheart to keep them out of the air, but now that My flight has gotten better I don't need him anymore. 3. The first Anti air that most rushdown players learn to avoid is usually CapCom. 4. Everyone knows all of the characteristics of his anti air assist. And while the others are known to they seem to catch more people off guard. (the angle on Cammy's AAA or the horizontal range of Jin's AAA for example) just wondering what other people think of my plan to send of my old friend. I'll throw him a going away party tomorrow. There will of course be punch and pie as I have heard is required for an event commemorating the loss of a character. Posted by Spider_Sting on 06:13:2001 06:46 AM: These are IMO the useful AAAs of MVC2 CapCom/BlackHeart/Cyclops/Psylocke/Cammy/Shoto/Guile+charlie/Jin/Doom/Ruby heart/Colossus/IM + WM quote: So why All of the emphasis on Captain Commando? I started thinking yesterday and I decided that it was time to retire CapCom from my team. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO quote: 1. On that list of AAAs that I can up with the only one that I think would lose to CapCom 1 on 1 on regular basis is Ruby heart, and even that is close. I think Capcom can work the shotos jin charlie guile and colosses.. but thats just me. quote: 2. I use Sentinel a lot and I used to use Capcom against Doom and Blackheart to keep them out of the air, but now that My flight has gotten better I don't need him anymore. CORRIDOR DOES GOOD DAMAGE!!! quote: just wondering what other people think of my plan to send of my old friend. I'll throw him a going away party tomorrow. There will of course be punch and pie as I have heard is required for an event commemorating the loss of a character. I think u should keep him cuz he's my fav rushdown stumper Posted by theperson420 on 06:13:2001 06:52 AM: I used to use CapCom for his assist, but now I moved onto Cammy. I dunno, but IMO I find her's more useful to me. Posted by BlackShinobi on 06:13:2001 08:39 AM: Cammy is a nice choice. I chose Jin. something to think about for seeing how bad Capcom is 1 on 1 If Capcom didn't have an anti air assist(he still has the corridor its just not an assist move) would you still use him? Would he still be so popular in tournaments? Alot of people settle for his limitations as a solo fighter for the benefit of his assist, when the are better fighting characters with equally useful assists. THINK ABOUT IT Spider_Sting - just try jin's AAA out for a while and see how you like it. Posted by JChristopher on 06:13:2001 09:21 AM: Capcom only loses pretty badly to the top tier and their keep away strats. Against non-air dashing rushdown, always remember the value of Capcom's j.hp!! Stuffs hella shit, man, I'm tellin ya!! Posted by cheese_master on 06:13:2001 09:27 AM: Lemme post one good reason why... Storm. No other assist can come close to controlling a good Storm... she can rushdown or runaway... which is she gonna do? You don't know... so how can you have a sure fire shot... use CapCom. If she runs away... CapCom will slow her down... if she rushs down... CapCom makes her think first. No other AAA you listed will handle her... period. BH is too easy to airdash past. So he won't really stop her runaway too much... and even if he does... what happens if she rushs you down? Then BH's AAA is not gonna get you far. The other AAAs... do hinder her rushdown... but still cannot do jack shit against her runaway. On top of all that... his assist does good damage. His assist also is very easy to use in combos (not combo off of) to make simple combos an assload more damaging. I am willing to sacrifice a character to have such a verisitile assist on my team. Take for instances this team... BH/Cable/Cyclops... its a good team but you know what... it requires two different AAAs for Cable to make it complete to stop Storm... while BH and Cyclops are alright at point... they aren't any thing to cry home about against Storm... but the team of Sent/Cable/CapCom... you have two very good point characters but you also have the adequate AAA to control Storm. If a rushdown player is dodging your CapCom assist... then he just playing smart and your being predictable with CapCom. It is pretty much the same story for any other AAA. I don't see how Cammy will help stop a rushdown player who is dodging CapCom... he most likely will dodge her too. Posted by ise on 06:13:2001 09:33 AM: the reason why capcom's assist is good is because 1) the damage. it doesnt get any better. people are scared of running into capcom AAA and it affects the way they play. 2) vertical range. reaches to the top and stops everything 3) HORIZONTAL RANGE - i dont think many of you realize this but capcom's assist is one of the furthest reaching AAA assists when it comes out initially. Other assists like cammy's goes further after she leaves the ground but not many assists have capcom's ground range. this lets him hit sentinel's limbs from full screen and lets BH do short, forward from max range and still have capcom connect aftewards. Posted by Spider_Sting on 06:13:2001 09:35 AM: quote: Originally posted by BlackShinobi Spider_Sting - just try jin's AAA out for a while and see how you like it. I have tried Jins and its great. Only problem is I suck with jin. I'm gonna stay with CapCom or Cammy cuz I can play point characters with them. Posted by BlackShinobi on 06:28:2001 03:35 AM: I was reading the tournament results forum when I remembered this thread quote: Originally posted by dragonkahn It's pretty shocking to see that Valle's Sent can beat Cable/CapCom AAA (which is a bad match-up for Sent) on a consistent basis but couldn't take on Justin's Cable/Cammy AAA. Posted by Psykik Jin on 06:28:2001 03:47 AM: if u wanna get rid of Capcom i would go with BH (thats who i use) Posted by BlackShinobi on 06:28:2001 03:56 AM: quote: Originally posted by Psykik Jin if u wanna get rid of Capcom i would go with BH (thats who i use) Blackheart has more screen control, but he sucks as an anti rushdown anti air assist Posted by Truedragon on 06:28:2001 06:12 AM: Well Commando is still the better choice. Jin on point is even worse than commando for #1. It's really a bad decision anyway about capcom getting avoided well then you're not using him right. With commando you use him to keep people out, not knock people who are too close to you away. For some reason people try to call him as soon as possible, which then people are ready for it and block it and keep on the offensive. What you should do when someone closes in on you meaning by rushdown, pushblock it stops you from getting thrown and pushes them away then call him and protect him. Meaning usually most people will want to keep the pressure and dash in this is when commando knocks them away even if they block it, and if you were cable you jump back and viper beam(well not against another cable in that case sj),with storm you hailstorm or sj air dash up, and throw a vert typhoon, with bh you j.hp, or sj.hk demons or infernoxxhod, with sent a s.hp,rocket punch,hsf just to give him time to get off the screen untouched. Then even if they bait you into using him and dodge him you'll still be able to protect him. Sometimes when you see an offensive assist come out pushblock the points attack and call commando and punish the assist if it's safe(hailstorm/hp,rocket punch,hsf) And if someone triangle jumps, they will most likely get hit by commando, so if you see a triangle jump call commando other wise pushblock and keep them outta there. This is why commando is anti-rushdown huge range, major damage, he also pushes them back a great deal etc. Commando also does crazy damage and deals with runaway which Jin doesn't. Plus again Commando is better on point. He can actually be pretty good with doom aaa, but it shouldn't be something you chose to do, but rather forced to. And he has the throw glitch and a pink outfit. Bad points are no startup invincibility, that's why assists like doom aaa and tron proj eat him up. That's why I'm including doom in almost any of my teams. As for changes one that could be a preference is cammy, not as much damage or "presence" if you will, but a much better point game imo, and her assist is invincible. another one is Ken, he has the best priority in the game, but it does low damage and Ken imo is worse than commando and cammy on point. Commando is a annoying bitch, Jin just strips. The only thing Jin really has over him is invincibility. And if you want invincibilty and still should have vert range go with cammy or ken who both are better at point. Posted by waldo98 on 06:28:2001 06:24 AM: Captain Commando's AAA has good vertical range that is pretty helpful against fliers like Blackheart, Sentinel, Magneto, Storm, and etc. However, I prefer to use Jin instead of Commando. Jin's AAA comes out faster and has more priority than Commando. Jin's AAA has the ability to knock people out of their moves like Doom's AAA, Ironman's Photon Cannon, and Sentinel's super (I forgot what its called). I also have more fun using Jin as a character than I do with Commando. I have a pretty decent Commando, but there is soo much for variety in combos with Jin. In addition, when Jin is in Super Armor, he is pretty hard to stop and his moves do great damage against his opponents. Posted by tortoise on 06:28:2001 02:57 PM: guile's AAA stinks. It's not invincible so it gets stuffed a lot. The little energy wave going all the way up to the top of the arena is nice though. Posted by Spider-Dan on 06:28:2001 05:08 PM: Commando has the farthest horizontal ground range of any AAA, by far. (I do not consider BH or Doom assist "true" AAAs) You can stand 2/3rd screen away from your opponent and call Commando, and connect. A specific example; if Cammy is standing underneath the end (or beginning? the farthest part)of her assists lifebars, and BH is in the corner, Commando will hit BH. Posted by aks216 on 06:28:2001 09:46 PM: does capcom assist track down the enemy? how far away does the opponent have to be for capcom to hit? Posted by BlackShinobi on 06:28:2001 11:14 PM: Spider Dan jin's AAA has more horizontal range than CapCom's does aks216 it doesn't track the enemy down, but it can hit from half a screen away (depending on the circumstances) Posted by psx2000 on 06:28:2001 11:19 PM: I think capcoms AAA is one of the best anti airs in the game that thing touches way up there and does good damage, the only thing scary about capcom is if u get snap backed and he has to come in then thats going to be a tough fight ur goal then will be have 2 supers and tag him out of there. Posted by theperson420 on 06:29:2001 12:10 AM: Well i recently found that Chun-li's anti air ai'nt so bad. It does good damage on it's own, and its easy to follow up with an air combo. Only problem is I think it doesn't have invincibility, and the fact Chun-li isn't very good on point. Still I think I'll use her now on my second string team, just to make stuff interesting. Posted by Geronimo on 06:29:2001 03:07 AM: Re: CapCom's AAA WHY? quote: Originally posted by BlackShinobi These are IMO the useful AAAs of MVC2 CapCom/BlackHeart/Cyclops/Psylocke/Cammy/Shoto/Guile+charlie/Jin/Doom/Ruby heart/Colossus/IM + WM So why All of the emphasis on Captain Commando? I started thinking yesterday and I decided that it was time to retire CapCom from my team. 1. On that list of AAAs that I can up with the only one that I think would lose to CapCom 1 on 1 on regular basis is Ruby heart, and even that is close. 2. I use Sentinel a lot and I used to use Capcom against Doom and Blackheart to keep them out of the air, but now that My flight has gotten better I don't need him anymore. 3. The first Anti air that most rushdown players learn to avoid is usually CapCom. 4. Everyone knows all of the characteristics of his anti air assist. And while the others are known to they seem to catch more people off guard. (the angle on Cammy's AAA or the horizontal range of Jin's AAA for example) just wondering what other people think of my plan to send of my old friend. I'll throw him a going away party tomorrow. There will of course be punch and pie as I have heard is required for an event commemorating the loss of a character. Here are a couple of good reasons to keep him on your team: 1. Stops rushdown pretty damn well. 2. Controls space really well/limits opponents options. 3. Has really good vertical range. 4. Can add good damage to air combo by pressing the assist botton at the same time w/ launcher. 5. The damage it does is good. 6. VC into captain sword, but dont do to often. Posted by Dasrik on 06:29:2001 06:15 AM: I'm speaking as someone who has used both Captain Commando and Jin on his teams. So I believe I'm entitled to clear some things up. 1. Jin's AAA does NOT have more horizontal range than Commando's, at least not any more noteworthy range. For all intents and purposes, they are the same. Commando's hits out farther than you think. 2. Commando being useless on point - this is just plain FALSE. Using basically his fierce attacks, Sho, Captain Fire and Corridor, CapCom is easily a second tier player. Sure, he has Cable problems and gets eaten by superior rush, but Commando does well on Doom and Spiral and flat out beats Blackheart. Jin, on the other hand, only hopes to be successful with Doom, and can do pretty much nothing against the top tier with the exception of maybe Magneto (and that's a very big IF, and he needs Doom to do it). 3. The AAA alternatives - Cyclops and Cammy work well, but they have their limitations - Cammy especially is dead weight against Blackheart, even as an assist. Ken is easily worse than Commando on point, and Jin sucks worse than Ken. Guile offers some unique advantages, but you have to know how to use him, and he still has serious issues vs. Cable/BH/Magneto types. Whoever said that Ken and Psylocke were better than Commando - please outline what advantages Ken/Psylocke have over Commando in a top tier fight. And even so, the Blackheart disadvantage is a rather large one to overlook, since there are so many BH users these days. That is all. Posted by BlackShinobi on 06:29:2001 07:37 AM: Dasrik, could you please explain to me why California hates cammy. did she steal money from them? did she sleep with Cali's best friend? What? If you even mention Cammy people are like Captain Commando or Ken, next question. Posted by NIN_CrimzinTerry on 06:29:2001 07:51 AM: Keep commando he does good assist damage, can prevent rushdown, and keeps people out of the air. Posted by silenttiger on 06:29:2001 04:09 PM: I think Capcom's assist is still good. Even though people are familiar with it, it's still good against rushdown because of its height and because it pushes back when blocked. It can be good with some psuedo-traps, like Doom's Molecular shield. Most of the people that I play with still get nailed by it, especially teleporting Spirals. It confuses some players because even if they block it, they rarely know what to do next. It sets up subsequent moves nicely. Posted by StiltMan on 06:29:2001 05:26 PM: quote: Originally posted by Spider-Dan Commando has the farthest horizontal ground range of any AAA, by far. (I do not consider BH or Doom assist "true" AAAs) You can stand 2/3rd screen away from your opponent and call Commando, and connect. I keep seeing this, and I keep getting this urge to strangle you when you say it. You need to qualify this, bad: "You can stand 2/3rds of the screen away from your opponent if they're nice enough to reach halfway back to you with a part of their body, and call Commando, and connect." That's not an instance where Commando's reach is truly 2/3rds of the screen. It's an instance where it's more like 1/4 to 1/3 of the screen, and your opponent is reaching far enough that their vulnerable areas are closer to you than they would be if they were simply turtling. BH's inferno is one of these instances - his hands are outstretched towards you and can be hit. Sentinel throwing drones is another instance - he's sticking his finger halfway across the screen, and Commando's blasting his hand. Cable's standing fierce does this, Doom jumping towards you with the fierce does this, Spiral's standing fierce does this, etc. In all of these cases, you're not actually reaching any farther -- they're reaching towards you and Commando's meeting them halfway. Incidentally, in many of these cases, Cammy will work just as well to hit them for only a sliver less damage, complete with invulnerability. There are two areas Commando really reaches that Cammy doesn't: low to the ground at medium-short range, and the top of the screen. Most standing opponents will get hit by either of them at about the same range, they'll get hit further out by Cammy if they're tall (yet another reason Sentinel absolutely hates Cammy), and if they're off the ground Cammy reaches a little further out at the cost of being a bit less effective if they're directly over your head. The damage differential between the two of them is miniscule, so it's a matter of whether you want Cammy's invulnerability and angle or Commando's low-ground and altitude coverage. I personally have never had a whole lot of fondness for Commando at all. This is no great secret to anyone who knows me. I've played Commando a fair amount on my teams on numerous occasions, but in almost every team situation where I'm using Commando, I always find myself doing better with the same team with Cammy in Commando's place. e.g. Strider/Doom/Commando and BH/Sentinel/Commando are widely known, classic teams, yet neither of them has ever done as much for me as I've been able to do with Strider/Doom/Cammy and BH/Sentinel/Cammy. Perhaps it's simply that the weaknesses in my game are better complemented by Cammy than they are by Commando... but that vertical reach just doesn't match up to Cammy's speed, invulnerability, and off-the-ground horizontal reach for me. In fact, about the only team I can see myself as being likely to use in the near future, where I envision Commando serving a role that Cammy isn't likely to replace, is Spiral/Sentinel/Commando, and Commando's presence here is pretty much entirely for Spiral's sake in place of Blackheart, for purposes of providing an AAA that can also deal with runaway Storms; Spiral is basically the only character I play who can't halfway easily bring runaway Storms down on her own. Posted by ghettokimchi on 06:29:2001 07:24 PM: ummm... i dont believe there is a better character... it depends how well u can use the char... if i suck with cable... i wouldnt want him on my team... capcom is good... but he does has his flaws on a rush down... but i have been beaten by capcom many times... ken... talk about invinciblity... hes one of the best middle tier players... and psylock... if it comes to a 1on1 fight with cable... psy owns cable... Posted by Dasrik on 06:29:2001 09:41 PM: StiltMan: Good points on Commando vs. Cammy. I also realize the disadvantages of Commando AAA (for example, his quite irritating inability to hit things directly in front of him). And I don't hate on Cammy (although it's true, she is not seen nearly as often here in Southern Calif. than on the EC). Today I'll try using Cammy on my teams to see how that goes - but I'm really much more experienced with Commando and can give you more than theory on him in this comparison: Against Blackheart (who is being used more often around here), Cammy is essentially dead weight. As an assist, she's only useful as far as the quality of the BH player (eventually, they figure out that the demons will stop the assist cold) - Cammy v. BH is even more of an irritating fight, as BH can win it merely with jumping fierce (watching out of course for the inevitable frustrated cannon drill). CABLE: Assist is a mixed bag, but Cammy probably has the edge since she's totally invulnerable and Cable is usually in her sights. On point, Cammy has the definite advantage since she can rush better than Commando. STORM: Commando without a doubt. Only he can deal with runaway Storm. On point, it's more iffy, but Commando/BH can do something more when Storm runs away. MAGNETO: As assists, they are probably about the same. Cammy does much better on point vs. Mags than Commando, though, so point goes to Cammy. SPIRAL: Commando. IMO, Commando has much more success than Cammy overall vs. Spiral. Cammy's AAA bounces off of knives, and Spiral/AAA should be sufficient to cut down Cammy's options on point. BLACKHEART: Already gone over. Commando >>> Cammy. SENTINEL: StiltMan's right with this - Cammy is much more of a headache to Sentinel than Commando. Commando can be taken out early with the right assist while Sentinel is flying, and can be avoided easy as well, whereas Cammy comes out quickly. Plus, Cammy does much better vs. Sentinel on point. Posted by Spider_Sting on 06:29:2001 10:06 PM: Penis AAA what? Posted by StiltMan on 06:29:2001 10:21 PM: quote: Originally posted by Dasrik Against Blackheart (who is being used more often around here), Cammy is essentially dead weight. As an assist, she's only useful as far as the quality of the BH player (eventually, they figure out that the demons will stop the assist cold) - Cammy v. BH is even more of an irritating fight, as BH can win it merely with jumping fierce (watching out of course for the inevitable frustrated cannon drill). As far as the assist goes, this is simply not true at all. Cammy rises up fast enough that if you're in her path, you don't already have the demons out, and she's called, you're not going to get them out before she's already got her foot embedded in your tail. If you look at the Wong/Valle video, Wong's Cammy hits Valle's Blackheart, at high altitudes, at least three times over the course of their match. In none of those occasions was Valle doing anything terribly stupid -- there are simply openings where Cammy can get Blackheart anyway, and Wong took advantage of them. Sure, you can't just fire her off and forget about it, but Blackheart does not have the luxury of ignoring Cammy at all. Commando and Cammy can both be evaded, yes... but Blackheart has no more real trouble with Commando than Cammy. quote: CABLE: Assist is a mixed bag, but Cammy probably has the edge since she's totally invulnerable and Cable is usually in her sights. On point, Cammy has the definite advantage since she can rush better than Commando. Well, the other part is that there are a number of situations where Cammy, if she whiffs, will wind up sailing off into the air. In these situations, Cable has troubles getting an AHVB on her. This is never the case with Commando. quote: STORM: Commando without a doubt. Only he can deal with runaway Storm. On point, it's more iffy, but Commando/BH can do something more when Storm runs away. If I'm up against a Storm player, I'm usually going to have either BH on the team or I'm going to have a point character that can catch Storm on their own. As I said earlier, that basically leaves me worrying about using Commando instead of Cammy only if I'm playing Spiral. quote: MAGNETO: As assists, they are probably about the same. Cammy does much better on point vs. Mags than Commando, though, so point goes to Cammy. Cammy is hugely better. Commando can be confused in quick airdashes over the point character's head easily due to his slow release time, and he's frequently going to find himself with Commando right on top of him and whiff even if Magneto's staying in front of the point character. Cammy has neither failing... if you call her against a Magneto that's coming in on you, she'll pretty much always go the right way and at least force him to airblock. The only situation where Commando is even arguably better than Cammy for this matchup is if he's airdashing at high altitudes and you want to have Commando blast him out of there before he gets closer to the ground. That's a pretty dubious tradeoff, IMO. quote: SPIRAL: Commando. IMO, Commando has much more success than Cammy overall vs. Spiral. Cammy's AAA bounces off of knives, and Spiral/AAA should be sufficient to cut down Cammy's options on point. This one's a wash, possibly even in Cammy's favor. About the only situation where Commando is not going to get stuffed where Cammy will is if your opponent drops a circle of knives directly over your head -- and that's balanced by the fact that Commando will sometimes get stuffed in a fierce/Sentinel/knives lockdown, whereas Cammy will always blow Spiral out of there if she gets on the field. quote: SENTINEL: StiltMan's right with this - Cammy is much more of a headache to Sentinel than Commando. Commando can be taken out early with the right assist while Sentinel is flying, and can be avoided easy as well, whereas Cammy comes out quickly. Plus, Cammy does much better vs. Sentinel on point. Part of that avoidance is also due to the angle that Cammy comes out at. This is a major area where I have to laugh at people when they say that Ken covers all the same places that Cammy does, just with more invulnerability... that just reeks of lack of real testing with her. Cammy stretches out both farther in front of you and higher than Ken does. If Sentinel is flying on you, and you have either Commando or Ken's AAA behind you, he is safe most anywhere other than pretty much directly over your head -- Ken reaches only slightly more than Commando does. Cammy, on the other hand, forces him to go full screen if he wants to get out of her way -- if his shoulder plates aren't pinned to that opposite wall, he's going down. Any point character that can cover that last gap (e.g. Blackheart or Cable) is going to basically shut Sentinel's flying down, bad, and most of those who are able to do so will also beat Sentinel pretty bad if he can't stay over their heads. Posted by Naslectronical on 06:29:2001 11:38 PM: Capcom AAA rules! Posted by LiquiTed on 06:30:2001 03:03 AM: quote: Originally posted by Naslectronical Capcom AAA rules! Something that I have noticed is no one has mentioned CapCom's ability to AC (counter) into CapSword then DHC into something like hailStorm , HVB , proton Cannon , HSF , etc . In Atlanta where it seems EVERYONE plays Sentinal this is on of my prime Sent. killers . Lead off with a good battery saving your supers (Storm , Spiral , magneto , Doom , etc.) then when Sent comes in and tries the Fly/assist+stomp//unfly yo AC the kick , cancel into sword DHC follow-up for HUGE damage . Maybe this isn't as powerfull in other areas but it's a big bonus to CapCom's game around here.... Ted Posted by Mitsuflip on 06:30:2001 05:40 AM: I dunno but CapCom AAA is very odd... today CapCom AAA came out and hit the ground but was hit at the same time but no beam came out from the ground and still knocked out the opponent in the air... he's just strange assist Posted by sabretooth on 07:01:2001 04:07 PM: quote: Originally posted by BlackShinobi Dasrik, could you please explain to me why California hates cammy. did she steal money from them? did she sleep with Cali's best friend? What? If you even mention Cammy people are like Captain Commando or Ken, next question. Cali hates Cammy because she will bounce out of doom's photons, bh demon's, cable's grenade, etc. In fact she will bounce out of a hadouken, or the flowers that Roll can throw. Plus, that's only one player in the world that have had success at big tourneys with her(Justin). Nor even at EC tournesy the others at Top 5 use her. Posted by Dasrik on 07:01:2001 09:36 PM: Actually, when I went to SHGL on Friday, EVERYONE and his brother was using Cammy. It's funny how SoCal peeps refuse to use characters unless they win major tournaments. Posted by crono on 07:01:2001 11:17 PM: Hey all, its been a while since I've posted... Anyway, this thread caught my interest mainly cause I think many of you are missing the point of the Cappy's assist. Cappy's assist is a control assist. It can used as a "counter mash it out" AAA, but everyone knows Cappy's AAA is not the quickest AAA and incorrectly used can actually backfire on you. However, when employed in a team that takes advantage of controlling space he is second to none. To the people who have been going on and on about cammy's speed, that really comes into play when you are already getting rushed down. If you are playing any classic Cappy team, he is suppose to prevent the rush from starting, not to interupt the rush somewhere in the middle. If you want that kind of AAA, Ken, Cammy, or Psylock is your best choice. What I am suggesting is that this discussion loses focus on when Cappy is should be used versus when you are using him. It seems to me that many of you simply bought into the idea that Cappy has the best AAA, bar none and that as most of you on this thread have figured out is not quite true. Like any assist the AAA is used for specific situations. Cappy's AAA is no different, and the proporties of his AAA show that. ex. Cappy will normally be called out when you have and established crossover, when storm is trying to running around, when a player is turtling by SJumping with multi-jump characters or when a player is trying to rush you down. At this point I'm sure all of you notice that all of the scenereos do not involve interupting a rush sequence interupting and super (Psy's AAA sometimes is fast enough...) or will mashing Cappy out vs. Magneto's (already started) rush, knocking Doom away when he is in his rock collection animation(which the afore mentioned Ken, Psy, and Cammy can do). I'm also assuming you've all seen the vid of (I can't remember who right now) Mag kicking Cappy before he even gets a chance to execute the CCorridor. Now when looking at Cammy, or any other what I call "Counter AAA", they all have very quick AAA, but there range is limited and infact, they do not do as much damage. However a braindead pattern usage Mag's Tri-pattern doesn't work versus Ken, Psy, or seemingly even Cammy's AAA. The AAA can be mashed out and knock Mag's, Storm, or just about any other rushing character down. And in addressal to the idea of using Cappy 1 on 1, you guys should know at this point (old school cheesy) Cappy can take on just about most characters 1 on 1, Spiral, Dhal, and the Super Armour's can be a serious problem. It ultimately boils down to who is the better player by that point. Given Cappy has a half-life super combo, and his hit->throw (using the ninja), plus CC (if in the corner) can also do quite a bit of damage. For you more unscrupulous(sp?) players... ex. Any ground series but use the strong punch that bounces them up in the air (or RH, but they can tech roll) xx to the ninja, they have to block the stupid ninja, and you've got a free throw, and the funny thing is that in the corner, even when they counter mash I WILL end up doing like 60-80 percent life because of the free CCorridor at the end... Ultimately I'm not going to sit here and say that I think Cappy is top level character. My take is that he is a solid character, and the AAA is one of the BEST assists in the game. But the previous analysis does not address the character for what he can do, but what you guys want him to be able to do. For all of blackhearts reach his AAA is lacking in ways that Cappy addresses, and vica versa. For all of Cammy's speed she doesn't control the screen the way Cappy can... Have a nice weekend everyone. Posted by Mazroth on 07:02:2001 02:04 AM: I'm surprised I haven't heard what's actually one of the most important differences for me between CapCom and Cammy when I'm choosing an Anti-air (And I use both of these assists often) CapCom's AAA will hit both assist and point char as long as they are in corridor range. Cammy's AAA only gets to hit one or the other (Unless your point and assist were basically standing RIGHT on top of each other) Posted by CaptainCommando on 07:02:2001 03:05 AM: the corridor can be used in ALL situations. drop me at your own risk. and there are many options on point as well. Posted by BlackShinobi on 07:02:2001 05:12 AM: Re: CapCom's AAA WHY? quote: Originally posted by BlackShinobi These are IMO the useful AAAs of MVC2 CapCom/BlackHeart/Cyclops/Psylocke/Cammy/Shoto/Guile+charlie/Jin/Doom/Ruby heart/Colossus/IM + WM This is just a reminder of how this thread started Please do not automatically raise Cammy's AAA to the same Godlike (unquestionable) pedestal as Capcom's Anti air because if you do you are missing the point of this thread. The point is that there are different reasoning behind each AAA and just because it won a tournament doesn't make it better. It just means someone had enough courage and originality try it and make it work. This is not written to the people who are supporting cammy, but to the people who are reading this thread and assuming that Cammy is now "the new Captain Commando" Posted by Dasrik on 07:02:2001 07:31 AM: Re: Re: CapCom's AAA WHY? quote: Originally posted by BlackShinobi These are IMO the useful AAAs of MVC2 CapCom/BlackHeart/Cyclops/Psylocke/Cammy/Shoto/Guile+charlie/Jin/Doom/Ruby heart/Colossus/IM + WM This list is strange. Why is Ruby Heart and Colossus on this and not Morrigan or SonSon? Anyway, Doom's not a real AAA because he is fairly bad as anti-air, but I'll list it anyway. I actually posted a thread on this awhile back. All AAAs are useful to a certain degree, to a point where I'd say all successful teams need an AAA of some sort. Here are my opinions on useful AAAs. BEST: Cyclops, BH, Psylocke, CapCom, Sentinel (Gamma), Doom, Cammy, Jin TOP: Ken, Cable, Guile/Charlie, Ruby Heart, Morrigan, Venom (Alpha), Zangief (Alpha) UPPER: SonSon, IM/WM, Magneto (Gamma), Storm (Gamma), Spider-Man, Chun-Li, Felicia (Gamma), Colossus MID: Megaman, Silver Samurai (Gamma), Ryu, Strider (Gamma), Hulk, CapAm, Marrow AVERAGE (Not Great/have more useful assists): Hayato, Rogue, Wolverine, Akuma, Dan, Omega Red, Tron (Beta), BBH, Dhalsim, Jill, Spiral (Beta), Sakura (Beta), Roll (Beta), rest of launcher types Any questions? Do tell. Posted by BlackShinobi on 07:02:2001 08:28 AM: Son son was left off as an oversite. She does belong up there Morrigan wasn't up there because her AAA just isn't that good IMO. I use Morrigan/Storm/Tron and the only reasons I use her anti air assist is because the other two don't have one. TRON DOES NOT HAVE AN AAA (I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT THING IS) Anyway the point is everything knocks morrigan out of her anti air its kind of sad. The priority on it sucks ass. Ruby's is good but is more of a trap assist than an true anti air Colossus is sort of like cammy but slower and not invincible. I like the way it works against Sentinel. Posted by StiltMan on 07:02:2001 04:36 PM: Re: Re: CapCom's AAA WHY? quote: Originally posted by BlackShinobi This is just a reminder of how this thread started Please do not automatically raise Cammy's AAA to the same Godlike (unquestionable) pedestal as Capcom's Anti air because if you do you are missing the point of this thread. The point is that there are different reasoning behind each AAA and just because it won a tournament doesn't make it better. It just means someone had enough courage and originality try it and make it work. This is not written to the people who are supporting cammy, but to the people who are reading this thread and assuming that Cammy is now "the new Captain Commando" Tough for you. IMO, Cammy is better than Commando, and I've always believed it. I've never been particularly happy with Commando. As I said earlier in this thread, I pretty much always find that any classic team that calls for Commando almost always works better for me with Cammy in his place. As if to give evidence, I got 3rd at the Springfield, OR tournament, with my main team being BH/Sentinel/Commando with the occasional fallback to Spiral/Cable/Sentinel. This last Saturday, I demolished everyone in sight with BH/Sentinel/Cammy with no need for a fallback, including going a net 9-1 against the two people who beat me at the previous tournament. I've never been able to quite put my finger on why, it's just been an instinct. Now, I think I can finally say it succinctly: Commando controls a slightly greater area than Cammy, yes. But Cammy controls a more important area. Think about it. Just about every character with an aerial game that you're liable to stop with an AAA favors the position above and in front of you. Very few (read: none) really wants to be directly over your head... you can just super jump up and tag them there anyway unless they airdash upwards. Commando requires the point character to get underneath your opponent... which isn't always terribly easy to do in a timely fashion before the opponent is already in a safer position, particularly with Commando's slow release. Cammy gets to that area for free, and releases fast enough that they have no time to get out of her way. Storm is basically the only example where you'd even arguably rather have Commando in there... except that her typhoons stuff Commando for free, and if Storm feels like bringing Doom along with her your Commando's never going to see the light of day. And having Commando rather than Cammy really doesn't change the nature of the game against a decent Storm anyway... if she sees you go under her, she airdashes or airblocks. No better than if you have Cammy and wait for her to descend a little, in the end. Posted by BlackShinobi on 07:02:2001 10:24 PM: That last post I made didn't really have anything to do with cammy or Captain Commando its just that alot of new users on SRK take what the read on this sight as absolute truth. Everyone knows that there are alot of people on SRK who don't post and if you don't say something specific you leave it up to them to correctly interpet the intent of the information given. which for this thread was supposed to be that "there is are different uses and purposes for all Anti Air Assists and that Captain Commando is not the automatic best anti air for your team" NOT "not Captain commando is no longer anti air god, Cammy is" I know where your coming from Stiltman but even you agree that there are situations where CapCom is favorable to cammy. Overthrowing one dictator for another usually solves nothing. Posted by Dasrik on 07:02:2001 10:42 PM: quote: Originally posted by BlackShinobi I use Morrigan/Storm/Tron and the only reasons I use her anti air assist is because the other two don't have one. TRON DOES NOT HAVE AN AAA (I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT THING IS) Anyway the point is everything knocks morrigan out of her anti air its kind of sad. The priority on it sucks ass. I'm not sure what you mean by GOOD priority, since Morri's AAA takes out tons of stuff (short of Summers j.rh and Magneto/Storm's air fierces for instance). It works like Cammy does vs. Sentinel (any limbs he sticks out will get hit) and it will hit Magneto out of airdashes and his jumping roundhouse. Plus it's a good preventive way to keep Doom out of the air - Morrigan's is basically a slower and slightly less ranged version of Cammy's without invincibility, so if you have Morri on your team, it serves its purpose well. (ONE THOUSAND POSTS! I'm offically an SRK scrub now. ) Posted by StiltMan on 07:02:2001 11:39 PM: quote: Originally posted by BlackShinobi I know where your coming from Stiltman but even you agree that there are situations where CapCom is favorable to cammy. Overthrowing one dictator for another usually solves nothing. Actually, at this point in time, I am completely and totally disinclined to incorporate Commando into any of my teams. Period. I can think of absolutely no matchup whatsoever where I'd rather have Commando over either BH, Cammy, or both. My current tournament team, which I fully expect to take into B5 with a pretty much unchanged game plan from what I'm using now, is Sentinel/BH/Cammy. On that team, there is absolutely no need to put Commando in Cammy's place. The only reason -- and I do mean the only reason -- that I'd ever want to put Commando in Cammy's place is to help against high altitude opponents, and on this team, BH fills that job just fine. Better than Commando does, even. Take that need away, and Commando is absolutely and completely inferior to Cammy for every other need that I would want an AAA for: shutting down rush attacks, cutting off angles of aerial attack that my opponent might threaten me with and thereby stifle their offense, and generally having a "panic button" to get rid of something that is bugging me. Even the Storm case is not an argument for Commando over Cammy. Why not? Because even if I don't have BH on the team, a smart opponent is going to take one look at the fact that my AAA is Commando, and they're going to rush me down relentlessly under Storm-A cover. For every time that I get lucky and knock down an idiot runaway Storm with Commando's AAA, I'm going to have ten times where I've got Magneto, Doom, or even Cable firmly lodged on my hindquarters and be unable to do anything about it except try to flee for my life, because those typhoons are going to shut Commando down cold. That tradeoff is highly dubious... I'll stick with Cammy and dodge one or two vertical typhoons and/or just drop BH to stop runaway Storms, thank you. Posted by Spider-Dan on 07:03:2001 12:08 AM: quote: Originally posted by StiltMan Actually, at this point in time, I am completely and totally disinclined to incorporate Commando into any of my teams. Period. I can think of absolutely no matchup whatsoever where I'd rather have Commando over either BH, Cammy, or both. I think that the fact that you promote replacing Commando's AAA with 2 assists (BH and Cammy) says it all. Why exactly do you think people pick Commando? It's precisely because Commando is unique. There are only two assists in the game that have "full" vertical coverage. One of them has much more priority, much more damage, and will cancel projectiles (which the corridor itself will). You might get somewhere arguing that Cammy AAA is good, but if you're trying to argue that Commando AAA sucks, you're going to run into a wall. Anyone that's ever SEEN the game, much less PLAYED it, knows that that's a load of BS. Have you figured out something the rest of the world hasn't? You say that BH and Cammy cover all the situations. Why not BH and Ken for full in close invincibility? Why not BH and Cyclops/Psylocke for less invincibility but combo potential? Why not Cable and Commando? You act like BH+Cammy is God's personal assist combination. I can think of no major (or even semi-major) tournament won with those two on the same team. Posted by BlackShinobi on 07:03:2001 04:17 AM: quote: Originally posted by Spider-Dan I can think of no major (or even semi-major) tournament won with those two on the same team. 1. this is madness. I'm starting to think that if no one won any tournaments with Cable that everyone over there would stop using him. The sheep mentality has to stop somewhere. 2. of course no one has won a major with BH/Cammy if they did would people still be putting her down so often. Up until two weeks ago half of the gaming(MVC2) community couldn't give a damn about cammy. She didn't get good all of a sudden, she was always good. BUT SINCE SHE DIDN'T HAVE MAJOR TOURNAMENT UNDER HER BELT IT WAS EASY TO PASS HER OFF AS JUST ANOTHER "USELESS" CHARACTER YOU CAN'T BE THE BEST WITH STOLEN TACTICS, BECAUSE SOMEONE WILL ALWAYS HAVE MORE EXPERIENCE WITH IT THAN YOU LIKE MY SIG USED TO SAY: IF YOUR NOT THE LEAD DOG THE GAMEPLAY NEVER CHANGES Posted by goldzn nismor on 07:03:2001 07:59 AM: Nice thread G's. just let me aleviate this topic further! Someone mentioned an excellent point earlier and it was something like this: "Your choice of an AAA should soley depend on the type of game strategy your trying to employ!" this are the only AAA's I use: KEN, CLOPS, CC, BLKHRT, PSYC. Theses AAA's have a team completing component to the teams i use. but of course that is upper class info, saved for B5 -gn "steps up cuz" Posted by StiltMan on 07:03:2001 05:57 PM: quote: Originally posted by Spider-Dan I think that the fact that you promote replacing Commando's AAA with 2 assists (BH and Cammy) says it all. Why exactly do you think people pick Commando? It's precisely because Commando is unique. There are only two assists in the game that have "full" vertical coverage. One of them has much more priority, much more damage, and will cancel projectiles (which the corridor itself will). You might get somewhere arguing that Cammy AAA is good, but if you're trying to argue that Commando AAA sucks, you're going to run into a wall. Anyone that's ever SEEN the game, much less PLAYED it, knows that that's a load of BS. Have you figured out something the rest of the world hasn't? I don't think Commando sucks... I simply have no use for him myself that I can't do better with other assists. The areas he covers, and the angles of attack he takes away from my opponent, aren't as important to me as the ones Cammy does. Most of the characters I play have no troubles covering the area over their head on their own... if I can move enough to get under my opponent in the first place, I usually can neutralize the threat by other means anyhow. The medium range area up in the air, on the other hand, is an area that is much more difficult to control if the opponent has the tempo -- Cammy is an assist that can get into that area, and shut down that threat, without the point character having to do any work at all. Against quite a few opponents who favor attacking from the air, that's a huge help. quote: You say that BH and Cammy cover all the situations. Why not BH and Ken for full in close invincibility? Whether or not BH is on point, Cammy is more useful than Ken. In close invulnerability is simply not as useful as the extra space that Cammy covers that Ken does not. There are basically no characters that have a whole lot of trouble covering a super jumping area over their head better on their own than Ken gives them, and closer to the ground in close Cammy's just as good or better. Her reach gets better than Ken's even by the time you're talking head level near the ground, her faster release makes her far more difficult to cross up than Ken is, and unless you're in position to initiate sexual relations between the two point characters, Cammy will do more damage. Once you're talking about the area off the ground, Ken is all but useless -- Commando covers the same area for more damage, and both of them have shorter reach in this department, by far, than Cammy. And BH, on point, has far more use himself for Cammy than he does for Ken. Ken's DP is pretty much impossible to combo off of for him... not so for the cannon spike. quote: Why not BH and Cyclops/Psylocke for less invincibility but combo potential? That's going to depend greatly on who the third character is. BH/Cable/Cyclops is, IMO, the best team with BH and Cable both on it, far superior to the same team with either Commando or Cammy as the AAA. OTOH, BH/Sentinel/Cammy and BH/Sentinel/Commando are both much better than BH/Sentinel/Cyclops. There is no combo potential with Commando that does not also exist with Cammy. Different timing, but all the same stuff works. quote: Why not Cable and Commando? If I'm bringing help primarily for Cable, I'm going to be bringing BH and Cyclops. Commando does indeed control an area that Cable can use the help controlling, but it just seems like a waist to have someone get hit with an AAA near the ground, and knowing that all the damage you'll get for it is the one smack when I know that same hit could be a free AHVB. Cable can just hurt someone way too much with just a little help setting it up for me to want Commando there. BH solves the space control problems for him just as well, and Cyclops is more useful for actually hurting the opponent in the process. I realize that I've got a lot of people who disagree with me in my own backyard -- Seattle is absolutely in love with the Cable/XXX/Commando teams, with XXX being Doom, Sentinel, Storm, or BH. I don't understand why the hell people go with BH/Cable/Commando over BH/Cable/Cyclops, myself... Commando's arguably better for BH, but Cyclops is so much better for Cable while still being quite good for BH, and BH fills in the space control issues for Cable just fine. The Doom, Storm, and Sentinel variants, I can sort of understand... Commando is a compromise that lets his teammates have a space controlling AAA without exposing Cable himself to risk, and most of his AHVB setups happen off of the other point character's assists, in addition to a decent amount of trapping power from each. I don't really care for those teams myself, though... if you want to trap and chip, there are other characters that can do it with Doom and Sentinel so much better than Cable can, and so many other assists that can set up AHVBs better than they can. But if your Cable is a lot better than mine is, I concede that it can be made to work. I just don't like the formula much, myself. quote: You act like BH+Cammy is God's personal assist combination. I can think of no major (or even semi-major) tournament won with those two on the same team. Not a relevant argument... and fallaciously begging the question, even. I can think of no major tournament where someone has tried playing with those two on the same team. Up until a month or two ago, I can think of no major tournament won with Cammy on the team at all, while we're at it. Firk, would we even be having this conversation on a serious level if Wong weren't fresh off of cleaning Valle's clock? Do you really think that Cammy was dead weight on that team? I agree with you to some degree -- BH and Cammy aren't going to work for every team. It depends a great deal on who the third character is. I'm not saying that this would be my only replacement for Commando... but if I'm of a mind to control high altitude areas, I can think of no character for whom BH and somebody doesn't do the job better than Commando does. It also depends on how good you are with BH on point. It must be noted that I'm speaking from the luxury of having one of the best BHs in the northwest here. If your BH on point isn't up to snuff, then by all means, throw everything I'm saying right out the window, because it won't work for you. I would definitely recommend Commando to those players in a heartbeat -- he'll do the job for them better than any other AAA will if their BH can't carry his own weight. And when I mean "carry his own weight", I mean that they'll need to be prepared to fight opposing Sentinels and even the occasional Cable with him and not go into it believing in advance that they're going to lose for free. I have enough confidence in my own BH that my game plan with my BH/Sentinel/Cammy team calls for him to take on opposing Sentinels and save my own Sentinel for Cables. That's a game plan that, admittedly, not many people will be able to go into a match with much confidence in. For those people... go with Commando. It'll work better. Posted by BlackShinobi on 07:03:2001 10:49 PM: does anyone actually use son son's AAA on a good team? this side of japan It is a good assist its just that I hardly see anyone using her effectively. Posted by Viscant on 07:03:2001 11:45 PM: ---------- Whether or not BH is on point, Cammy is more useful than Ken. In close invulnerability is simply not as useful as the extra space that Cammy covers that Ken does not. ---------- In terms of extra space, you aren't talking about much at all. The extra space that she gets her full hit on is one thing, but Cammy gives up everything that's important in MvC2 to get that extra space. Unless you're talking damage, Ken does everything she does, but does it better. Ken puts opponents in a way better place Ken protects himself after connections and after blocks Ken goes through more stuff that's important (rocks, demons) Ken is more useful as a counter assist. (a side factor of the fact that he protects himself) Unless you're playing Cable, there's no real reason to have Cammy instead of Ken. Her liabilities are worth WAY more than the extra little bit of damage you might pick up. Then you have to look at the point character game. If you're playing Doom, Sentinel, Storm or Cyclops, you'd rather have Ken than Cammy because his team aspect (though minimal) is at least an improvement over Cammy's. I imagine the Cammy boom caused by Justin will die out for the same reason that it died out in the first place. It just doesn't work. ---------- I don't understand why the hell people go with BH/Cable/Commando over BH/Cable/Cyclops, myself... ---------- BH/Commando is WAY WAY better from Blackheart's point of view. Commando lets him attack parts of the screen he doesn't control safely and Commando also pisses off some of the characters that cause Blackheart the most trouble, namely Sentinel, Storm. The best way to beat BH/Cyclops is to get above him and start wearing him down. Against BH/Commando this is not an option. I do agree though, that for every other aspect of the game after 20 seconds, you'll wish you had Cyclops. Commando is powerless to fight on this team, whereas Cyclops thrives with Blackheart assist and he loves being able to alpha counter in Cable (because the only proven ways to beat Cyclops get owned by having Cable-B to alpha counter to). Cable also likes Cyclops better than Commando. The reason you pick Commando is if you plan on striking quick and mauling someone to death with Blackheart. ---------- Firk, would we even be having this conversation on a serious level if Wong weren't fresh off of cleaning Valle's clock? Do you really think that Cammy was dead weight on that team? ---------- But again, aside from one game, there is nothing that Cammy did that Commando, Ken, Guile or Charlie couldn't do equally as well or better. If you want to argue team dynamics, Cammy caused more problems for Justin than she fixed. His Magneto had to rely on low fierce to do damage, and you played XSF...you know that low fierce is the quickest way for Magneto to get owned. That's why Cyclops and Psylocke are so popular with Magneto. He gets to avoid his die button entirely. Justin doesn't. He has to take his chances and can't be nearly as free to attack. And his Cable doesn't benefit as much from random connections as much as it would with Cyclops or Psylocke. If you want my opinion, that team is going to get him in trouble down the line. He has a good Cammy, but the extra power he could get from Cyclops or Psylocke as a point character (both of which are in a different league from Cammy altogether), and the extra potency he can squeeze out of his two real characters is too much to ignore. --Jay Snyder Le Viscant Posted by StiltMan on 07:04:2001 01:01 AM: quote: Originally posted by Viscant In terms of extra space, you aren't talking about much at all. The extra space that she gets her full hit on is one thing, but Cammy gives up everything that's important in MvC2 to get that extra space. Unless you're talking damage, Ken does everything she does, but does it better. Or, for that matter, unless I'm talking the area they cover (Cammy goes both higher and further out horizontally), the speed of release (which makes Cammy far harder for airdashing opponents to fool), comboability, and so on. quote: Ken puts opponents in a way better place They both put an opponent at full screen distance. Cammy puts them there in a manner that potentially lets a point char combo off of a hit, just like Commando does. Ken hurls them up off the top of the screen... how many point characters can combo off of that? quote: Ken protects himself after connections and after blocks After a connection? Cammy's going to be gone by the time they reach the ground after a connection. How much protection does that need? And if your opponent airblocks Cammy, your point char only needs to cover her for about half a second -- if she whiffs, she'll go past them, just like Ken. Ken, on the other hand, can be pushblocked up in front of someone, and will be on the screen longer to get nailed. quote: Ken goes through more stuff that's important (rocks, demons) Demons will not stop Cammy by themselves if the opponent is smart enough to use her properly -- you do have to pick your spots to call her, but BH doesn't render Cammy anywhere near as useless as you'd think at first glance against scrubby Cammys. The rocks are a slightly different story... but at least Cammy can still knock Doom out of there on a point blank hit, unlike Commando, who for all intents and purposes gets shut down by Doom, cold. quote: Ken is more useful as a counter assist. (a side factor of the fact that he protects himself) That's a matter of opinion. I strongly disagree with it. quote: Unless you're playing Cable, there's no real reason to have Cammy instead of Ken. BH can combo inferno/HOD off of Cammy just like off of Commando. There's a second point char. In addition to that, the area Cammy covers is far superior to Ken. If I want to shut down a flying Sentinel, Cammy is easily the first assist I'm turning to. Guile is arguably similar, but isn't going to do anywhere near the damage. Ken... covers even less real area than Commando. If those aren't real reasons, I'll eat my shoes. quote: ---------- I don't understand why the hell people go with BH/Cable/Commando over BH/Cable/Cyclops, myself... ---------- BH/Commando is WAY WAY better from Blackheart's point of view. I agree. For just BH's own purposes alone, Commando is better. (So is Cammy, for that matter.) quote: I do agree though, that for every other aspect of the game after 20 seconds, you'll wish you had Cyclops. Commando is powerless to fight on this team, whereas Cyclops thrives with Blackheart assist and he loves being able to alpha counter in Cable (because the only proven ways to beat Cyclops get owned by having Cable-B to alpha counter to). Cable also likes Cyclops better than Commando. The reason you pick Commando is if you plan on striking quick and mauling someone to death with Blackheart. I agree with basically all of this as well. And you've more or less outlined my reasoning for why I'd much prefer BH/Cable/Cyclops over BH/Cable/Commando -- BH might like Commando better, but on the balance Cyclops is a better help to both than Commando is to BH alone. quote: If you want to argue team dynamics, Cammy caused more problems for Justin than she fixed. His Magneto had to rely on low fierce to do damage, and you played XSF...you know that low fierce is the quickest way for Magneto to get owned. That's why Cyclops and Psylocke are so popular with Magneto. He gets to avoid his die button entirely. Justin doesn't. He has to take his chances and can't be nearly as free to attack. And his Cable doesn't benefit as much from random connections as much as it would with Cyclops or Psylocke. I'm going to start my rebuttal to this by saying that there's nothing you've said here that isn't true. Magneto and Cable will have a lot more firepower on the offense with those two than they do with Cammy. They have to set up all of their own shots, and Cammy is basically no help in this at all. On the surface, it's very easy for me to give in to this argument and agree with you. But I don't agree... because I think there's a huge factor that you're missing altogether in this analysis: space control. Cyclops and Psylocke are two of the worst AAAs in the game for it. Cammy has a serious argument for being the best. In my opinion, she is the best. And this is an area that any Magneto/Cable team can't address without her or someone like her unless they want to expose Cable to a beating every time he throws a scimitar while Mags is on point. With Cable on point, there's no overhead help at all. Ask yourself a serious question: do you see Magneto/Cable/Cyclops or Magneto/Cable/Psylocke as a serious threat to Alex Valle, playing Team Watts, in this lifetime? I sure as hell don't. Team Image (and its knockoff) has absolutely horrific problems protecting themselves meaningfully from overhead attack. All of their advantage near the ground is squandered by having no defense against attack from the air. And rumor has it that Team Watts is based very strongly on aerial assault. This is why Team Image fell out of favor pretty damn fast after B4, if I'm not mistaken... it simply can't control enough of the screen to cut it. If you can rush people down to a degree that you can keep them on the ground, you can win. If you can't, you simply won't. Team Wong makes what I consider to be an excellent tradeoff from Team Image: it sacrifices the fools gold of free air combos and AHVBs in exchange for the more important strategic tool of controlling airspace. Yes, Magneto and Cable lose some offense from this tradeoff with the loss of the easy setup assists... but their opponents lose more offense from it with the angles and areas that are taken away from them as viable positions from which to launch an attack. As I pointed out earlier, Cammy is basically always there for you... call her out once, by the time your opponent recovers from that and any necessary protective follow-ups she's already locked and loaded for the next time. The only AAAs that are as constant in their presence that I can think of are Psylocke and Jin... and neither of them covers anywhere near as much area or cuts off as many angles as Cammy does. So while I agree that having Cammy on the team does require her teammates to do more work for their offense, as you say, she does not, in any stretch of the imagination, "cause more problems than she fixed". I would postulate that being able to not have to worry about being attacked from most any aerial position in front of you is far more valuable an asset than what amounts to an extra launcher, if you really think about it. Posted by Viscant on 07:04:2001 01:52 AM: ---------- Or, for that matter, unless I'm talking the area they cover (Cammy goes both higher and further out horizontally), the speed of release (which makes Cammy far harder for airdashing opponents to fool), comboability, and so on. ---------- The extra distance Cammy gets is either non-existant or so minimal as to not matter. I can think of nothing PRACTICAL that Cammy can get to that Ken can't. Release speed is a double edged sword. You don't always want the fastest. Using Ken is different because you can allow people to cross themselves up. Comboability is clearly in Ken's favor. His 3 hits and then you fly away makes it way easier to combo on a hail storm, or SJ cancel fierce, jab viper, AHVB; or 2 hit inferno, then additional inferno xx HOD (or just be lazy and infinite). Cammy's hits give you far less time to react. Being a BH player you should know the value of delayed 2 hit infernos...Ken does this, Cammy is incapable of doing it. ---------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken puts opponents in a way better place -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- They both put an opponent at full screen distance. Cammy puts them there in a manner that potentially lets a point char combo off of a hit, just like Commando does. Ken hurls them up off the top of the screen... how many point characters can combo off of that? ---------- But you're missing the point here. The assist or target that Ken hits isn't allowed to come back into the action for an extremely long period of time. This is why Ken breaks the Strider/Doom trap and why Cammy only annoys it (and gets herself killed in the process). ---------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken protects himself after connections and after blocks -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- After a connection? Cammy's going to be gone by the time they reach the ground after a connection. How much protection does that need? And if your opponent airblocks Cammy, your point char only needs to cover her for about half a second -- if she whiffs, she'll go past them, just like Ken. Ken, on the other hand, can be pushblocked up in front of someone, and will be on the screen longer to get nailed. ---------- Thinking in terms or practical applications, if you hit me in a common position (photons) and I'm Doom, I can still super you. If I'm Cable, I get hit and my assist moves you around a bit, you're still going to die. With Ken you don't need to worry about it. He's going to the same place every time. You can't do any Commando trades or whatever, if Ken hits you, he's going to land and get away. This is not the case with Cammy. ---------- Demons will not stop Cammy by themselves if the opponent is smart enough to use her properly -- you do have to pick your spots to call her, but BH doesn't render Cammy anywhere near as useless as you'd think at first glance against scrubby Cammys. The rocks are a slightly different story... but at least Cammy can still knock Doom out of there on a point blank hit, unlike Commando, who for all intents and purposes gets shut down by Doom, cold. ---------- If Blackheart refuses to do anything but jump away, unless Cammy's escort is named Cable, Storm or Sentinel, she's going to be 100% useless. With Ken, you know that if you hit a button, you're going into orbit, and you might leave your helper on the ground for me to play with. The differences are worlds apart, because most matches v. Cammy, Blackheart is going to build meter and he's going to call helpers. Matches v. Ken, Blackheart will be continually afraid of calling helpers and he'll be practically unable to attack safely unless I make a mistake or get happy fingers. ---------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken is more useful as a counter assist. (a side factor of the fact that he protects himself) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That's a matter of opinion. I strongly disagree with it. ---------- I have Doom/Storm/whatever, you have (anyone not named Cable)/(whoever not named Iron Man)/Cammy. If I call my whatever and you call Cammy, you will lose her and you will not be able to stop this unless you'd like to take some of her beating for her (making me hail sooner). This is not a problem with Ken. You call an assist, I will call Ken to counter it, then I will set up a screen to cover him when he's coming down so you can't hurt him. Meanwhile your assist (by virtue of being somewhere off in orbit) will probably take additional damage in addition to the 2-3 hits of Ken he/she already took by falling on my screen. Ken and Commando are pretty much unquestioned in terms of the counter assist game. ---------- BH can combo inferno/HOD off of Cammy just like off of Commando. There's a second point char. In addition to that, the area Cammy covers is far superior to Ken. If I want to shut down a flying Sentinel, Cammy is easily the first assist I'm turning to. Guile is arguably similar, but isn't going to do anywhere near the damage. Ken... covers even less real area than Commando ---------- Mostly covered above. You can pick Cammy and that's fine, but if Sentinel fly cancels into a block, do look forward to watching Cammy take 50% damage or more in about 2-3 seconds. With Ken this isn't a problem because of extended invincibility after a block. Sentinel's only option would be to counter assist you while blocking (unless he's going to suicide on my assist, which is entirely possible with Sentinel's defense, but still not generally a great idea). ---------- But I don't agree... because I think there's a huge factor that you're missing altogether in this analysis: space control. Cyclops and Psylocke are two of the worst AAAs in the game for it. Cammy has a serious argument for being the best. In my opinion, she is the best. And this is an area that any Magneto/Cable team can't address without her or someone like her unless they want to expose Cable to a beating every time he throws a scimitar while Mags is on point. With Cable on point, there's no overhead help at all. ---------- Stop. You're missing the point here. Examine the space that Magneto and Cable control on their own. With the speed that Cammy can be called, Magneto or Cable can get to/blanket that same spot. If you want to talk space control, Cammy is redundant with Cable (but not entirely useless; look at it a different way). ---------- Ask yourself a serious question: do you see Magneto/Cable/Cyclops or Magneto/Cable/Psylocke as a serious threat to Alex Valle, playing Team Watts, in this lifetime? ---------- Last Saturday, ShadyK was 2 of Alex Valle's miracle Commando comebacks away from winning the SHGL tournament. If Shady doesn't give away the last two games, he wins. With Magneto/Cable/Psylocke. ---------- All of their advantage near the ground is squandered by having no defense against attack from the air. ---------- Psylocke does just fine protecting ground to air. If you get caught by Psylocke while Magneto is the point character, expect to have your team order dismantled and 30% or more taken off 2 characters for free (guaranteed combo to snapback + guaranteed guard break). I don't think there's any question that Magneto's best assist is Psylocke because she gives him the only defense he needs. Cammy defends the wrong area. Cable is strong enough against the characters in question to win it without help at all. ---------- This is why Team Image fell out of favor pretty damn fast after B4, if I'm not mistaken... it simply can't control enough of the screen to cut it. ---------- The team stopped being used because the main user stopped playing the game. Also because there are probably a handful of competent Cyclopes in the US, and maybe only double that amount of competent Psylockes. The main plus of the team (the 3rd character will own your 3rd character guaranteed) was being largely ignored by most of the copycats and you're left with 2 characters who have nightmares against Storm and Spiral. The team is solid because it is difficult to counter character aside from the aforementioned Storm and Spiral. Space control is not a factor because unless you want to add Blackheart (bad idea) or Commando (worse idea) to the team, no assist covers the space that Magneto/Cable can't. Cyclops actually helps in the space control against Storm. Call Cyclops, dash, Psimitar makes Storm at least run through a mine field. Picking Cammy is not the worst thing you could do, but my overall point is why do it when you can choose a better assist, a better 3rd character, or both all in one? --Jay Snyder Le Viscant Posted by Jakuda on 07:04:2001 02:21 AM: quote: Viscant Mostly covered above. You can pick Cammy and that's fine, but if Sentinel fly cancels into a block, do look forward to watching Cammy take 50% damage or more in about 2-3 seconds. With Ken this isn't a problem because of extended invincibility after a block. Sentinel's only option would be to counter assist you while blocking (unless he's going to suicide on my assist, which is entirely possible with Sentinel's defense, but still not generally a great idea). I agree with viscant about Ken being easier to cover than Cammy. In one of the games in the 10 match justin v ricky, there were two instances in two different games where justin called cammy on a ricky's blocking cable. Cammy bounced off and needless to say => dead Cammy. If Ken replaced Cammy, he would have kept going up and Justin could have done something to cover Ken as he dropped. Posted by Dasrik on 07:04:2001 02:57 AM: quote: Originally posted by Viscant Thinking in terms or practical applications, if you hit me in a common position (photons) and I'm Doom, I can still super you. If I'm Cable, I get hit and my assist moves you around a bit, you're still going to die. With Ken you don't need to worry about it. He's going to the same place every time. You can't do any Commando trades or whatever, if Ken hits you, he's going to land and get away. This is not the case with Cammy. Very valid point, something I discovered about Cammy when I played with her yesterday. Her bouncing off after a connection is more a liability than an asset. On JohnDoe with air super/Storm vs. BH/xx/Cammy, there's no practical way for even Blackheart to prevent Cammy from eating a hail storm. You could Inferno after a non-comboed cannon spike, but he would have to committ himself to staying on the ground in case Cammy hits. If he tries to superjump to cover his helper, he's toast, and if Cammy DOESN'T hit, BH cannot cover his helper while he's so close to the ground. Even with Storm next, he has no instant start helpers to go into hail storm with. Armageddon is fast enough to work IF Cammy hits - it's good enough to get worked on the ground vs. a fast opponent. All this adds up to make calling Cammy in c.short > c.forward combos your ONLY practical option. And this is just with Blackheart... with most any other character, unless you can predict the future and/or have ungodly references, A-Cammy is useless on [Doom/Sentinel/Magneto/Cable/Iceman/Psylocke]/Storm. Posted by BlackShinobi on 07:04:2001 05:28 AM: Against most characters, especially Sentinel, Ken might as well be captain commando, and as for that imaginary space that cammy covers of CapCom, Ken and Cammy cammy is the only one who can hit an opponent in the wall of the screen and as for covering cammy afterwards its alot easier than it is being made out to be. Is it a big surprise that if you call out cammy against a blocking cable who is expecting it that the result is a dead cammy; if you call out any assist against a blocking cable who is expecting it the result is a dead character. Posted by Jakuda on 07:04:2001 05:42 AM: quote: Originally posted by BlackShinobi ... and as for covering cammy afterwards its alot easier than it is being made out to be. Is it a big surprise that if you call out cammy against a blocking cable who is expecting it that the result is a dead cammy; if you call out any assist against a blocking cable who is expecting it the result is a dead character. The point was that Ken is easier to cover against a blocking Cable b/c he continues all the way up. Which means your point character can come up with something to protect Ken. Doom, BH, quickly come to mind that can easily protect Ken. Meanwhile Cammy gets instant death. Posted by BlackShinobi on 07:04:2001 06:52 AM: quote: Originally posted by Jakuda The point was that Ken is easier to cover against a blocking Cable b/c he continues all the way up. Which means your point character can come up with something to protect Ken. Doom, BH, quickly come to mind that can easily protect Ken. Meanwhile Cammy gets instant death. I hope by come up with something you mean get in position for a move and not think of something because if you don't already have an idea of what you are going to do when your assist leaves the ground you're pretty much screwed no matter who your assist is. maybe trying to encourage a different way of thinking was a bad idea Posted by Jakuda on 07:04:2001 07:01 AM: quote: Originally posted by BlackShinobi I hope by come up with something you mean get in position for a move and not think of something because if you don't already have an idea of what you are going to do when your assist leaves the ground you're pretty much screwed no matter who your assist is. maybe trying to encourage a different way of thinking was a bad idea LOL. Yeah, obviously. When people call an assist, they should already know what to do if: 1) the assist hits 2) the assist whiffs or gets blocked. Posted by BlackShinobi on 07:04:2001 07:10 AM: quote: Originally posted by Jakuda LOL. Yeah, obviously. When people call an assist, they should already know what to do if: 1) the assist hits 2) the assist whiffs or gets blocked. just checking Posted by BlackShinobi on 07:04:2001 09:41 AM: I'm getting really bad vibes about this thread now, because if I know the hierarchy of SRK all of the evidence and debating in the world isn't going to mean shit against what Viscant has to say, at least not to most people. Sad but true Posted by Dasrik on 07:04:2001 11:27 PM: quote: Originally posted by BlackShinobi I'm getting really bad vibes about this thread now, because if I know the hierarchy of SRK all of the evidence and debating in the world isn't going to mean shit against what Viscant has to say, at least not to most people. Sad but true Now hold it right there. You're at risk of taking a foolish position merely because it's the non-comformist one. Think for a moment. The weakness of A-Cammy is a rather LARGE one, that should not be overlooked. It basically means that, against X1*/Storm/X2, once he obtains two levels of meter, you don't get to have an AAA at all. If Cammy is blocked, your opponent gets to punish her for free by means of DHC into hail storm; if she HITS, his job is much easier since you can't even reach the opponent in time to avoid having Cammy eat hail storm. At best, your enemy gets a free switch; at worst, you lose two characters. And it doesn't get much better if the second character is Storm; if it's Sentinel, Juggernaut, Magneto, Iron Man, or even Morrigan, you have to work much harder to protect Cammy than your opponent does to punish her, and you still basically have to guess. Seriously, you claim we're ignoring evidence, yet you're guilty of overlooking a MAJOR weakness. Consider that there's a reason people listen to Viscant in the first place, and that even though he's not always right, he puts a lot of thought into most of his discussions. And by the way, Commando has the EXACT same weakness as Cammy. So this non-conformist angle you are taking is pointless. (* = X1 being Doom, Cable, Magneto, Sentinel, Cyclops, Iceman, Psylocke, Cammy, Ryu, Akuma, Bison, Spider-Man, Jill, SonSon, Anakaris, Ruby Heart, and Hayato(!). Also possibly Blackheart, Spiral, Morrigan, Guile, Omega Red, Dhalsim, Wolverine, Mega Man, Marrow and Roll(!!) That's a good chunk of the cast.) Posted by DeathFromAbove on 07:05:2001 02:42 AM: Different strokes...etc. Ken goes through more shit, is easier to protect, and causes more blockstun and hitstun. Cammy still goes through a lot of shit, and in exchange for the other weaknesses...you can call her about 3X as often during the match. So if you think you CAN consistently protect her, why the hell wouldn't you choose her? That one fact alone is simply HUGE. Course I'll still be playing Ken, same as always, but still. Oh, and a question: What can Ken do at point that Cammy can't do (better), Viscant? I know you favor Ken, but, uh...why? -DFA Posted by BlackShinobi on 07:05:2001 03:11 AM: quote: Originally posted by Dasrik Now hold it right there. You're at risk of taking a foolish position merely because it's the non-comformist one. Think for a moment. The weakness of A-Cammy is a rather LARGE one, that should not be overlooked. It basically means that, against X1*/Storm/X2, once he obtains two levels of meter, you don't get to have an AAA at all. If Cammy is blocked, your opponent gets to punish her for free by means of DHC into hail storm; if she HITS, his job is much easier since you can't even reach the opponent in time to avoid having Cammy eat hail storm. At best, your enemy gets a free switch; at worst, you lose two characters. And it doesn't get much better if the second character is Storm; if it's Sentinel, Juggernaut, Magneto, Iron Man, or even Morrigan, you have to work much harder to protect Cammy than your opponent does to punish her, and you still basically have to guess. Seriously, you claim we're ignoring evidence, yet you're guilty of overlooking a MAJOR weakness. Consider that there's a reason people listen to Viscant in the first place, and that even though he's not always right, he puts a lot of thought into most of his discussions. And by the way, Commando has the EXACT same weakness as Cammy. So this non-conformist angle you are taking is pointless. (* = X1 being Doom, Cable, Magneto, Sentinel, Cyclops, Iceman, Psylocke, Cammy, Ryu, Akuma, Bison, Spider-Man, Jill, SonSon, Anakaris, Ruby Heart, and Hayato(!). Also possibly Blackheart, Spiral, Morrigan, Guile, Omega Red, Dhalsim, Wolverine, Mega Man, Marrow and Roll(!!) That's a good chunk of the cast.) I didn't say YOU PERSONALLY were missing evidence, but trust me a person looking to this thread thinking about an anti air is much more likely to believe viscant over you or me. I was in no way giving up any position that I took earlier. Its how this site works. If jchensor was having a debate with Evil Rashaan over his whole "iceman owns Cable theory" most people will automatically lean to james Chen's said even though while offending people as many as possible, Evil Rashaan did make some good points. People who know what there talking about won't be swayed by a name but there are alot of newbies who would. THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WILL PAY A HUNDRED DOLLARS MORE FOR THE SAME SHIRT JUST BECAUSE OF THE NAME ON THE TAG. Anyway I'll drop it and continue with my normal posting and see what happens I doubt you even need this thread, I really intended it as a way for newer players to see from other people with more experience that Captain Commando is not the end all of Anti air assists. So sorry if I can of as accusing Posted by Satsujinki on 07:05:2001 04:12 AM: Well, I use the Doom AA to get rid of Commando, those rocks cut Commando off before he can start saying "Captain Corridor" in his funny accent. Posted by StiltMan on 07:05:2001 04:34 PM: quote: Originally posted by Dasrik The weakness of A-Cammy is a rather LARGE one, that should not be overlooked. It basically means that, against X1*/Storm/X2, once he obtains two levels of meter, you don't get to have an AAA at all. If Cammy is blocked, your opponent gets to punish her for free by means of DHC into hail storm; if she HITS, his job is much easier since you can't even reach the opponent in time to avoid having Cammy eat hail storm. At best, your enemy gets a free switch; at worst, you lose two characters. And it doesn't get much better if the second character is Storm; if it's Sentinel, Juggernaut, Magneto, Iron Man, or even Morrigan, you have to work much harder to protect Cammy than your opponent does to punish her, and you still basically have to guess. Well, here's my beef with the argument that this somehow makes Cammy useless: you're going to get to do this once. That's going to burn two meters and it's going to do maybe 30-40% damage to Cammy. Then you've got Storm on point and you're going to have to do either do two more DHCs to reposition her to do this again (three more meters), or you're going to need to do an alpha counter to your "X2" character, or you're going to need to tag somebody in. If X2 isn't a particularly good point character (e.g. that's your AAA) then tagging them in isn't probably a viable option. Unless you build your entire team to try and make this whole process easy to execute, I just have difficulty seeing this as a realistic option as opposed to a theoretical one. And what are we talking about here? If you're having to rearrange your entire team just to perfect it to do DHCs on Cammy, she's probably done half of my work for me... I mean, how good is a team that's built for the sole purpose of being able to DHC and shift and bob and weave around in order to try to kill Cammy on DHCs really going to be on just about every other merit in the game? I realize that Viscant builds his teams to do lots of DHCs, but the only one that's a realistic threat is with Storm in the middle... and you're simply not going to have more than one, maybe two DHC hail storm opportunities happen in a game. As for extra space control she gets over Ken... Viscant, I highly recommend you start trying Cammy out and actually look at how much extra area that is. The horizontal range on Cammy is somewhere in the neighborhood of twice that of Ken. She is easier to stop in this regard with Doom-B, this much is true. That's the main assist that really gets in her way in real terms at some ranges. However, the flip side of that is that you're in danger of getting Doom stuck on point with Cammy against him -- and Doom on point hates fighting a Cammy-A team a lot more than he hates fighting a Ken-A team. Sure, he can potentially do a DHC hail storm to try and punish Cammy, but what happens if Storm isn't in a position where you really want her coming in? What if she's got a lot of red bar because I've already hurt her? What if she's flat out dead? Then what's Doom going to do? He's going to die, to basically anyone on the top tier with Cammy behind them, that's what he's going to do. Hell, Doom doesn't even win against her on point if it comes down to a one-on-one endgame... of the entire top tier, Doom is probably the weakest point char to fight Cammy head to head with. His j. fierce doesn't meaningfully interdict her due to her short height and is even at risk of getting cannon drilled, he can't do squat against her in an up close rush game, and she can cannon spike or MaxCam on reaction to every photon charge he throws. That's... basically every real weapon he has out the window. Cammy has her weaknesses. But those in no way make up for her strengths. When you've got to build an entire team around trying to DHC her, I'd tend to say she's more than done her job at the selection screen. Posted by Chaotic Blue on 07:05:2001 07:50 PM: Not sure. Although I agree that cammy does have more horizontal range than ken, and is better point that ken, I'd sooner go with ken. Since against doom AA cammy is pretty useless unless you call her at the same time your opponent calls doom. So you opp. gets to chip you and kills your antiair at the same time. Im thikning a storm doom team against xx. but I'm still a newbie. Hell I don't really even play with an anti air. *unless cable counts* Chaotic Blue will see you in Arizona! Posted by Dasrik on 07:05:2001 08:54 PM: quote: Originally posted by StiltMan Well, here's my beef with the argument that this somehow makes Cammy useless: you're going to get to do this once. That's going to burn two meters and it's going to do maybe 30-40% damage to Cammy. Then you've got Storm on point and you're going to have to do either do two more DHCs to reposition her to do this again (three more meters), or you're going to need to do an alpha counter to your "X2" character, or you're going to need to tag somebody in. If X2 isn't a particularly good point character (e.g. that's your AAA) then tagging them in isn't probably a viable option. Unless you build your entire team to try and make this whole process easy to execute, I just have difficulty seeing this as a realistic option as opposed to a theoretical one. Doom/Storm and Magneto/Storm are already good teams on their own, and ones that are capable of putting random pain on Cammy. If she's ailing already, you risk losing her, and even if you don't, you still have to contend with Storm, who can build meter quickly and pretty much handle anyone. Plus, Doom/Storm needs a real character on third, meaning you can't rely on it being a shoddy AAA. quote: And what are we talking about here? If you're having to rearrange your entire team just to perfect it to do DHCs on Cammy, she's probably done half of my work for me... I mean, how good is a team that's built for the sole purpose of being able to DHC and shift and bob and weave around in order to try to kill Cammy on DHCs really going to be on just about every other merit in the game? I realize that Viscant builds his teams to do lots of DHCs, but the only one that's a realistic threat is with Storm in the middle... and you're simply not going to have more than one, maybe two DHC hail storm opportunities happen in a game. It only NEEDS to be done once to fudge up your entire plan. Like I said, Doom/Storm and Magneto/Storm are already good teams, and arguments can be made for other characters with Storm next in line. Also another important thing to consider is that if your opponent's character is hurting and looking to switch, a Cammy assist is the perfect for-free opportunity. This means, among other things, Blackheart with Cammy (or even Commando) onboard loses his AAA once Magneto gets two levels. The gambit means Cammy gets damaged and you have to fight Storm on point, who can kill assists unless you're on her at all times. To me, it's not worth the risk. quote: However, the flip side of that is that you're in danger of getting Doom stuck on point with Cammy against him -- and Doom on point hates fighting a Cammy-A team a lot more than he hates fighting a Ken-A team. Sure, he can potentially do a DHC hail storm to try and punish Cammy, but what happens if Storm isn't in a position where you really want her coming in? What if she's got a lot of red bar because I've already hurt her? What if she's flat out dead? Then what's Doom going to do? He's going to die, to basically anyone on the top tier with Cammy behind them, that's what he's going to do. I can't speak for Viscant, but from what I've seen, Doom on point *never* calls Storm out unless he's absolutely sure he can cover her. Doom/Storm will save Storm just so that she can DHC in safely with a lot of life, if not 100%. I hate to repeat myself, but I feel I need to drive the point home - you can go ahead and use Cammy when Doom gets two levels, but that means that Cammy gets hurt and you have to fight Storm now. quote: Hell, Doom doesn't even win against her on point if it comes down to a one-on-one endgame... of the entire top tier, Doom is probably the weakest point char to fight Cammy head to head with. His j. fierce doesn't meaningfully interdict her due to her short height and is even at risk of getting cannon drilled, he can't do squat against her in an up close rush game, and she can cannon spike or MaxCam on reaction to every photon charge he throws. That's... basically every real weapon he has out the window. That's true. But what about Magneto/Storm/Psylocke? I only see Cammy standing a reasonable chance against Psylocke, and even then I could make an argument for Psylocke beating Cammy. I'm not comfortable with using teams that are designed to beat Mags/Storm/Psy, but really don't. This means any team with Cammy or Commando on it. quote: Cammy has her weaknesses. But those in no way make up for her strengths. When you've got to build an entire team around trying to DHC her, I'd tend to say she's more than done her job at the selection screen. Cammy's great... as long as your opponent doesn't put Storm 2nd. You can play her against things like Spiral/Cable/Sentinel and Team Watts, but x1/Storm/x2 can throw a monkeywrench in things, especially if x1 is Magneto. I hope I've made my point here. I want to time out to say thanks for some really good conversation here. Just so you all know this isn't heated. Posted by StiltMan on 07:05:2001 09:42 PM: quote: Originally posted by Chaotic Blue Not sure. Although I agree that cammy does have more horizontal range than ken, and is better point that ken, I'd sooner go with ken. Since against doom AA cammy is pretty useless unless you call her at the same time your opponent calls doom. Well, since my team is Sentinel/BH/Cammy, Doom-B doesn't really bother me much. If he calls it in front me, either of my point characters can knock him out of there with a quick sj. rh if he's too far away for Cammy to clean his clock. For some other teams that can't dispose of Doom's presence as easily, though, you may have a point. I should probably post a correction to something I said earlier: I commented that I can't think of a single character for whom BH and somebody isn't better than Commando. I've since thought of one: Strider. You don't have an option of taking BH and a second AAA instead of Commando, because one of Strider's teammates has to be Doom. Doom doesn't quite replace all the close-in control options of Commando, so Doom/BH wouldn't serve the same purposes as Commando at all. In fact, I'm finding myself a bit disenchanted with Strider as a whole for this reason -- Strider's stock with me just goes down more and more, with the less and less that Doom is useful. He already is one of the characters you can least afford to screw up with. This is one facet of MvC2 that I often don't like... oftentimes, characters will require you to go to such lengths to build the rest of the team to make up for their weaknesses that they wind up dragging the whole team down with them. Strider, in a way, is like that... back when Doom was considered perhaps the best character in the game, this wasn't that big of a deal, but now that Doom is no better than fifth or sixth best in the game, tops, Strider's stock goes down right along with his. In addition, Strider has a catch-22 in that if he takes a close range assist (like Commando), he has to be very precise with his teleports just to try and chase people down, whereas if he takes a trapping assist (like BH) he's very vulnerable to rushdown from something like Magneto/Storm/Psylocke. Storm cuts through Doom or BH at a distance, and Pyslocke cuts through them both at close range... what's Strider to do when Magneto inevitably gets around the animals? And so on... Posted by StiltMan on 07:05:2001 09:52 PM: quote: Originally posted by Dasrik Cammy's great... as long as your opponent doesn't put Storm 2nd. You can play her against things like Spiral/Cable/Sentinel and Team Watts, but x1/Storm/x2 can throw a monkeywrench in things, especially if x1 is Magneto. Well, yes, I agree, to a fair extent. Getting DHC'ed with Storm on Cammy is a potential threat. But how many times is your opponent going to really get to do this? Once, basically. Maybe twice, and that only by sheer luck. And yeah, now I'm going to have to fight Storm. And yeah, Storm can kill assists to a fair degree, but she's not going to have anywhere near the ease in punishing Cammy as the first character did with her in back. Now, she has to stay on the ground to pull this off -- and unless I'm a complete idiot, I'm not going to give her the room to hurt Cammy any further. Yes, it prevents me from throwing Cammy out willy-nilly, that's true... there's a certain limitation on that against certain characters in general. What I'm really saying is that I fail utterly to see why Cammy is disproportionately vulnerable to this as opposed to most other AAAs in the game. Ken... arguably has protection from this, but in realistic terms, the biggest threat to my AAAs that I'm going to worry about is not a stratospheric air super DHCed into a single hail storm. quote: I hope I've made my point here. I want to time out to say thanks for some really good conversation here. Just so you all know this isn't heated. I see the point... and yeah, you can hurt Cammy a bit and make her hurt enough that if she's in a position where she might die to a hail storm then I can't call her out any more... but the simple existence of a team with two meters with Storm in the second slot doesn't do this for free... it's not like Cammy all of a sudden is completely useless just because she might get hit by a single sudden hail storm unless she's been hurt badly earlier in the fight. No prob on the conversation. I rather like the strategic discussions myself... nowhere near enough of these on the forums these days. Posted by BlackShinobi on 07:05:2001 10:13 PM: The thing about stiltman's team (at least to me) seems to be that cammy wouldn't really need to fight doom. A good sentinel with Blackheart backing him would give doom more than he could handle. And i'll read what you wrote again Dasrik but I still don't see how 1 DHC is going to mean death for cammy Its all in the team. if cammy is your only anti air Doom may give you trouble, but if you have another AAA or a character who can cover her without using a level each time like Sentinel, Magneto or Cable its not really a problem Posted by crono on 07:05:2001 10:47 PM: Well, hasn't this thread turned out to be intersting! I hope all of you had a good 4th this year! Stiltman, we've gotta hook up one of these days. I'm live in the greater Seattle area. Although I remember the thread being about Cammando; this Cammy vs. Ken discussion is really cool! In terms of game use this discussion feels like the issue is based upon feel vs fact. So far the analysis on the properties of of the two AAA's is very indepth. As far as survivability goes: No one can deny the fact that Cammy does not leave the screen after contact, and if the opponent blocks, Cammy may get royally screwed! Meanwhile with Ken, since he leaves the screen regardless of blocked attack or no, being able to protect Ken is in all likely hood going to be easier than Cammy. For the issue about Control: Cammy may have more horzontal reach that Ken, but you are also talking about a differnt use at that point. Ken is a much better defensive AAA that Cammy. With his invulnerablility and vertically far reach, he stops incoming attacks at a much greater like percentage than Cammy ever will. However, to Cammy's credit, she is quicker then Ken in regards to the time it takes for her to come out and hit an opponent. Horizontally she has greater reach, but along with that, her vertical coverage is alot less. DIGRESSION: Besides, in terms of Space control I'm not entire sure this is what you are referring to. Space control is in reference to the area that a character can cover at any given time. Neither Cammy nor Ken's AAA provides much in the way of control. To me the space is in reference to the whole screen. So if a character "controls" space they dominate a certain area of the game screen. If you suscribe to Duc's control theories, that the game breaks into 4 quadrants. Whatever your personal theory is, that section of the screen is to be dominated by you in some fashion either by being there physically or being able to reach it(ei. a beam, dog, bird, ect., ect.,). I personally break the game into 9 sections, and when I look at both ken and Cammy, they do not dominate any section of the game screen other then the section that I already reside. Try this analogy: Let's say in a hypothetical field of war, I command a small squad, but have the benefit of modern technology on my side. My opponents are a large body of politically unruley guerilla's who outnumber my troops 100 to 1, fortuanately the battle field is flat, clear, ground. As the battle begins, I call for air support. Unless the enemy as Anti-Air my planes rule the skys and I hopefully I win because they have nothing they can do about my air strikes. But I am outnumbered 100 to 1, even bombing all day, I and my sqaud personally can only shoot so many. So even though I control the air, they control the ground, will my position be overrun before my air support wins the day? Cammy, and Ken's AAA are solutions to opponents who are in the air, hense the AAA designation. However they're temporary solutions, who can only occupy small area of the screen. Continuing the analogy, they are like firing AA rockets at the planes. Once the rockets are spent they don't regenerate. In the same way many assists are not permanent to the game screen, so unless they are commando like in property they don't ever really control space. But what Cammy and Ken do is prevent the area above you (in a limited area) from being dominated by your opponent. Personal take: In most way's I do not feel that Cammy is superior to Ken. Her liabilites outwieght her advantages. If a mistake is made in using her, the repurcussions are more potentially catastrophic in nature then with Ken. The bonus damages, plus the pixie damage, make Cammy as less then sure thing as an assist. I wrote this HUGE post about Cammy a while back, where I rated Cammy a pretty good char, both as point and as an assist. But then as now, what makes her a good~great character is her speed, and ability to go from one end of the screen to the other. But this element does not exist as an assist. Sure she comes out and hits quickly, but that doesn't make her invulnerable, nor does her quickness save her from damage. Ken on the otherhand, though more stable in use and safer in action is alot slower. Defensively I feel that he is arguably the best AAA in the game, invulnerable until he comes down, he jst about always clears the screen, and is less likely to strike he's victory pose in a compromising position. But rushing down with ken is not nearly as effective. I dissagree with Viscant about Cammy being a more a liability then she is worth. If you're more comfortable with one char over another, then I don't feel that it's a liability. After all she has certain properties about her AAA that are more conducive to rushing. With the speed, and hit priority, along with the crossover game, It is an aspect of the game that think that Ken is slightly inferior in. I've tried rushing with Ken, and I can't stand it, but that's just me. I don't like the way that I have to drop him right next to my opponent, and I don't like the time that he takes to come out and actually hit my oppentent. When I rush with Ken, for some reason it seems like I make more mistakes, and I run into more Cable's that have two levels to spend than with anyone else. Posted by BlackShinobi on 07:05:2001 11:06 PM: I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet Cammy's invincibility makes it good for knocking opponents out of supers and because of the angle and her invincibility if she misses after being called out within a half screen of your opponent doing the super she lands behind them unharmed ecxept for hail storms and HSFs unlike ken who still lands in the super in most top tier cases Posted by StiltMan on 07:05:2001 11:37 PM: quote: Originally posted by crono Stiltman, we've gotta hook up one of these days. I'm live in the greater Seattle area. I'm a regular in the Southcenter tournaments up there; the next one of those is on the 14th of this month. In addition, I'll be going up there again the week after the tournament because my wife found something she'd like to do there. quote: As far as survivability goes: No one can deny the fact that Cammy does not leave the screen after contact, and if the opponent blocks, Cammy may get royally screwed! Meanwhile with Ken, since he leaves the screen regardless of blocked attack or no, being able to protect Ken is in all likely hood going to be easier than Cammy. Well, here's my beef with what I see as an oversimplification of this: if you blocked Cammy, most like my point char is sitting right next to you, ready to follow up. If you didn't get hit, that means you're in block stun long enough for me to most likely get to you. If you did get hit, you're flying off the screen yourself while Cammy's sitting on the ground, taunting, and leaving. Your total window for hitting her is about half a second. "Lock on!" and goodbye, that's it. There's not a whole lot of area in there to really hit her, where I can't get a point character in position to cover for her. And then there's the issue of speed. One of the joyous things about Cammy is that she's fast enough that you can often call her in reaction to things that are out of reach of some of the slower ones. For instance, if I'm seeing Cable sailing in on my Sentinel because I've been nice enough to let him out of the usual stompfest, his rh is slow enough, and the way he twists his body obvious enough, that it isn't completely beyond the pale to just have my finger on the Cammy button and hit it if I see him turn his body for the move. A number of other AAAs, Cable can reach the ground and be blocking again by the time they release... not so with Cammy. Another nasty little trick is to jump back into a jumpin, air block, and if you see them throw a move, put Cammy in there -- most people figure if you're going to jump back into them, you're not likely to throw an AAA, so if they've got priority over you they think they've got you. Oops, here comes a cannon spike... see ya, Ororo. That ones a bit more dangerous to try, though, because if you're already jumping into them it also means that you're out of position to get out of the way if that other char is Cable, so unless you've got good faith in your reaction time or your ability to predict your opponent, don't try this at home. quote: For the issue about Control: Cammy may have more horzontal reach that Ken, but you are also talking about a differnt use at that point. Ken is a much better defensive AAA that Cammy. With his invulnerablility and vertically far reach, he stops incoming attacks at a much greater like percentage than Cammy ever will. However, to Cammy's credit, she is quicker then Ken in regards to the time it takes for her to come out and hit an opponent. Horizontally she has greater reach, but along with that, her vertical coverage is alot less. Cammy's vertical reach is as good or better than Ken's, if I'm not mistaken. Ken, if you call him on a photon charging Doom, will just barely get his fist up to Doom's hands' level if he's at maximum altitude without airdashing up. Cammy will get her foot a full body length higher than that, such that if she whiffs, she'll be level with Doom before coming back down. And if the first thing Cammy hits is her opponent, she's just as invulnerable as Ken is. There are a very few things that will get in the way, but Ken does not hit things at a "much greater like percentage than Cammy ever will." If you don't have a solid object between you and her, you'll get hit by Cammy just as much as Ken. quote: DIGRESSION: Besides, in terms of Space control I'm not entire sure this is what you are referring to. Space control is in reference to the area that a character can cover at any given time. Neither Cammy nor Ken's AAA provides much in the way of control. Okay, here's what I mean by "space control". Probably the most relevant example is Sentinel, because he's basically the most dangerous character in the game whose main weapons are air-to-ground. So that's what I keep using as my example. If you're a flying Sentinel, and I have Cammy-A, you have two areas on the screen where Cammy won't hit you: right over my point character's head, and full screen. Everywhere in the middle belongs to me. If you try to fly anywhere in that space and leave me any openings whatsoever to get Cammy on you, you're going down. Very large area that I control by having Cammy in there -- and, incidentally, everywhere where you're actually a serious threat. If I have Ken-A or Commando-B in there instead, that area is much smaller and less important to you: about a quarter of the screen's space over my head. If you're anywhere further out than that, you're safe. Due to the speed that both Commando and Ken release at, you're also not going to have that much trouble coming in, stomping, and getting out before I can put an AAA on you. Doom is probably the other good example... if you're at the angles that Cammy hits, you're going to have a harder time threatening Doom than the ones where Ken or Commando hit. If you're far enough under Doom that you can hit him with one of those two, your point character isn't going to get hit with photons anyway and can sit down there waiting for him to come down. Granted, Commando will probably hit him harder than a bit of chipping damage when he gets there, but Doom is not much threat to someone directly under him anyway. He is a threat to people at the diagonal angle from which Cammy will come. Thus, Doom and Sentinel are a couple of my theses for why I made the statement earlier that, while Commando covers a bit more vertical area, Cammy controls a more important area. Side note: As I think about it, I find myself wondering whether Cammy really controls that much less total space than Commando at all... I suspect she goes far and high enough that the total area she covers is about the same, it's just slanted as opposed to straight vertical. But that's a lot of speculation for a geometry freak to confirm or deny, so I won't delve too far into that. Posted by crono on 07:06:2001 01:51 AM: Let me apollogize in advance for a host of gramatical, errors quote: Originally posted by StiltMan Well, here's my beef with what I see as an oversimplification of this: if you blocked Cammy, most like my point char is sitting right next to you, ready to follow up. If you didn't get hit, that means you're in block stun long enough for me to most likely get to you. If you did get hit, you're flying off the screen yourself while Cammy's sitting on the ground, taunting, and leaving. Your total window for hitting her is about half a second. "Lock on!" and goodbye, that's it. There's not a whole lot of area in there to really hit her, where I can't get a point character in position to cover for her. The situation that I feel that you are forgeting is where your opponent is in the air and blocks Cammy. You may or may not be able to reach, and in that situation Cammy is in a pretty vulnerable situation. I may seem to be nit-picking, but that situation is pretty common in games. Also, I want to point out that the comment is a general property of Cammy vs. Ken not an in-game analysis. In the game as I mentioned I don't use Ken as part of my "rush" patern, where as I am willing to employ other AAA's. So pointing out that more often then not you are in a given position doesn't always apply. I'm pretty sure that there are readers, who will read what you wrote and say "How come, I'm never that close..." If you got plush blocked away at an inopportune moment, or if you were triangle dashing trying for an assist crossover, ect., ect., ect., and suddenly you find yourself half a screen away or even more from your helper. For the purpose of this post, I personally don't think that incorporating game experience is as important as the property of the move itself... quote: Originally posted by StiltMan And then there's the issue of speed... I totally agree about the speed aspect... quote: Originally posted by StiltMan Cammy's vertical reach is as good or better than Ken's, if I'm not mistaken. Ken, if you call him on a photon charging Doom, will just barely get his fist up to Doom's hands' level if he's at maximum altitude without airdashing up. Cammy will get her foot a full body length higher than that, such that if she whiffs, she'll be level with Doom before coming back down. And if the first thing Cammy hits is her opponent, she's just as invulnerable as Ken is. There are a very few things that will get in the way, but Ken does not hit things at a "much greater like percentage than Cammy ever will." If you don't have a solid object between you and her, you'll get hit by Cammy just as much as Ken. here's a major point of disagreement... Cammy's actual reach is about a screen and a half of height, where as Ken's is about two complete screens of hit detection. If as in your example Doom has Superjumped, neither char can hit him, however what I am saying is that in the few experiment that I've tried Ken, seemed to reach higher. Sadly enough I remember months back, spending time at a machine having selected both Cammy and Ken, and testing who could hit what. As it turned out then, Ken was just able to reach the flyers at the top of the pulled screen, but just barely. Cammy did not reach that hieght. In reference to your example I really can't say anything about it, but at this point this aspect of the debate is falling rapidly into minutia. However, the comment on invulnerability, what you are forgetting is that Ken is unvulnerable regardless of whether or not he hits the character, the only time he is vulnerable is when he is coming down, or a split second when he first comes down (and it's unfortunate that all AAA's have that annoyong property...) I can think of two examples quickly off the top of my head... In the case of an AHVB, IF it's preformed in reaction to an errant AAA call, Ken will harmlessly pass through (though may get hit coming down), while Cammy gets jacked regardless of if she's raising, falling, or just coming in. Though in the end both Ken and Cammy eats AHVB, Ken handles the damage better. The second is when both opponents call for an assist. Say Doom, comes out, and so does Ken, Ken is usually the winner (can't forget about that spit second when first coming in). In Ken vs. Cammy, provided they both come in about the same time (ken either first, or much latter...) Ken is the usual winner. quote: Originally posted by StiltMan There are a very few things that will get in the way, but Ken does not hit things at a "much greater like percentage than Cammy ever will." If you don't have a solid object between you and her, you'll get hit by Cammy just as much as Ken. Well in retrospect I was hasty in making that comment, since it was more a personal feeling that something that has factual basis. But what I will say regarding my comment, is that I personally feel that Ken is more likely to hit the opponent regardless of the situation as sited in the above than Cammy is likely to. quote: Originally posted by StiltMan Okay, here's what I mean by "space control". Probably the most relevant example is Sentinel, because he's basically the most dangerous character in the game whose main weapons are air-to-ground. So that's what I keep using as my example. If you're a flying Sentinel, and I have Cammy-A, you have two areas on the screen where Cammy won't hit you: right over my point character's head, and full screen. Everywhere in the middle belongs to me. If you try to fly anywhere in that space and leave me any openings whatsoever to get Cammy on you, you're going down. Very large area that I control by having Cammy in there -- and, incidentally, everywhere where you're actually a serious threat. If I have Ken-A or Commando-B in there instead, that area is much smaller and less important to you: about a quarter of the screen's space over my head. If you're anywhere further out than that, you're safe. Due to the speed that both Commando and Ken release at, you're also not going to have that much trouble coming in, stomping, and getting out before I can put an AAA on you. Doom is probably the other good example... if you're at the angles that Cammy hits, you're going to have a harder time threatening Doom than the ones where Ken or Commando hit. If you're far enough under Doom that you can hit him with one of those two, your point character isn't going to get hit with photons anyway and can sit down there waiting for him to come down. Granted, Commando will probably hit him harder than a bit of chipping damage when he gets there, but Doom is not much threat to someone directly under him anyway. He is a threat to people at the diagonal angle from which Cammy will come. Thus, Doom and Sentinel are a couple of my theses for why I made the statement earlier that, while Commando covers a bit more vertical area, Cammy controls a more important area. Side note: As I think about it, I find myself wondering whether Cammy really controls that much less total space than Commando at all... I suspect she goes far and high enough that the total area she covers is about the same, it's just slanted as opposed to straight vertical. But that's a lot of speculation for a geometry freak to confirm or deny, so I won't delve too far into that. Common now, your telling me that you have had Cammy hit Doom or any character out while they SJumped away. Cause otherwise Cammando can definately reach where only 1 other AAA can reach! In reference to your comment about where on the screen is more important, to me I've select Commando because on the section of the screen above my point char, there is no distance he cannot reach. Infact I've used that fact to dictact where a flying sent could go. With teams that have Cammando that's what I bank on. When Sent starts coming over to stomp away, I make it a point to call out Commando and (depending on my char), either I jump toward the location Sent is at, or send something to that location. Man, with Strider, I remember a match where Sent was flying and kicked me like twice (PRATICALLY HALF MY LIFE!!!) and was coming back for a third serving. But I was calling out Commando, so he backs off, but gets hit by the bird, and off I go into the Strider Large Char infinate. BTW: Even with a hugh meter advantage and two on 1 character lead that I shortly there-after developed, I still almost manage to lose. Just one mistake with Strider... Oh ya, its a good thing you brought up Ken, I forgot to bring up that problem... I personally find they whole "lets move like a seemingly half a screen to perform my DP" thing really obnoxious. It was kinda cute in SF Champ Edition. Kinda comical on the 3rd Strike era, but in this game, it find it as frustrating as it helpful. Does Ken really need to travel THAT far, cause if there the right height over my head Ken isn't just whiffing, he's practically in another match! Posted by Jakuda on 07:06:2001 02:43 AM: This whole Ken v Cammy argument is going on forever... blah. I'd like to clarify one thing though the point of: Ken v Cammy's horizontal range. I have my DC on training mode and am using BH, to call the assist and then SJ up to see how far up and wide they reach. Conclusion: Cammy and Ken have very close ENDING points in terms of horizontal reach. To better give you how close their ENDING (i'll explain why i emphasize ending later) points are, if you turn on "attack data", and have your point char stand on the very far left, call Cammy, super jump straight up, and you'll see that Cammy's horizontal range stops near the "X" of "Max Combo". As for Ken, his max horizontal reach stops around the "M." As for vertical reach, Cammy and Ken have around the same vertical height range. You can verify it yourself. Do it several times, and you'll see that Cammy reaches maybe half a spike of BH's hair higher. But even then, I'm not sure if ALL of Cammy's glowing foot hits, in the same sense that the tip of BH's tail (during s. short) can "hit" cable's knee but it doesn't do anything. If that's the case, the vertical range is pretty negligible. Going back to why I say "ENDING" points. The path Cammy and Ken take are a bit different. It seems the Ken takes a steep path, while Cammy has a very similar but maybe a couple degrees wider path than Ken. This very slight change in degree in path (verified by doing multiple pauses and such) explains for the SLIGHT horizontal reach difference. This means the Ken will hit things that are closer to the point character while Cammy might sail right by it, if the character is like KOBUN. But for the most part, in practical use, both Cammy and Ken will hit the same things. So at the end, both assists have been verified to have VERY similar horizontal and vertical reaches. The few things that are different that people have already mentioned is that Cammy comes out faster, but she is more vulnerable in that she bounces if she hits a physical object. Ken does more overall damage (if all 3 hits of his dp connects), is slower, but is easier to cover. Posted by Jakuda on 07:06:2001 05:09 AM: Lol, like most threads we digress from the original question. Hm... if you [blackshinobi] chose not to use Capt. Commando anymore, coolio for you. *shrug* But there are some situations where having CC would be nice/easier than the other top AAA's. All times are GMT. The time now is 11:16 PM. Show all 76 posts from this thread on one page Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.2.4 Copyright © Jelsoft Enterprises Limited 2000, 2001.